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- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 94 12:01:56 PDT
- From: Info-Hams Mailing List and Newsgroup <info-hams@ucsd.edu>
- Errors-To: Info-Hams-Errors@UCSD.Edu
- Reply-To: Info-Hams@UCSD.Edu
- Precedence: Bulk
- Subject: Info-Hams Digest V94 #629
- To: Info-Hams
-
-
- Info-Hams Digest Sun, 5 Jun 94 Volume 94 : Issue 629
-
- Today's Topics:
- 440 in So. Cal. (7 msgs)
- Getting started in HAMS
- Ham Radio few problem (2 msgs)
- wanted 7mhz tcvr like HW22 or Swan MB-40.
- YAESU FT840
-
- Send Replies or notes for publication to: <Info-Hams@UCSD.Edu>
- Send subscription requests to: <Info-Hams-REQUEST@UCSD.Edu>
- Problems you can't solve otherwise to brian@ucsd.edu.
-
- Archives of past issues of the Info-Hams Digest are available
- (by FTP only) from UCSD.Edu in directory "mailarchives/info-hams".
-
- We trust that readers are intelligent enough to realize that all text
- herein consists of personal comments and does not represent the official
- policies or positions of any party. Your mileage may vary. So there.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 12:32:17 GMT
- From: brunix!pstc3.pstc.brown.edu!md@uunet.uu.net
- Subject: 440 in So. Cal.
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) writes:
-
- > The current issue of "closed" versus "open" is not a coordination issue.
- > It's a spectrum management policy issue.
-
- And, since to the FCC all repeaters are "closed", and all trustees
- regardless of their machine's "open" or "closed" status have the ultimate
- say of who can and who can not access the repeater, then the entire
- spectrum management policy issue is moot. Frequency coordinators ought
- to be doing what they were intended - to coordinate machines in such a
- way as to minimize interference with other systems - without consideration
- for their "open" or "closed" status.
-
- MD
- --
- -- Michael P. Deignan
- -- Amalgamated Baby Seal Poachers Union, Local 101
- -- "Get 'The Club'... Endorsed by Baby Seal poachers everywhere..."
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 12:50:49 GMT
- From: brunix!pstc3.pstc.brown.edu!md@uunet.uu.net
- Subject: 440 in So. Cal.
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) writes:
-
- > What isn't yours can't be taken away from you. The airwaves are a public
- > resource. The fact that you were in the park first doesn't mean that
- > you have the right to pitch your tent and make it your home.
-
- Sigh. This is getting tiring. Once again (you might want to print this
- out so you can reference it again in case you forget):
-
- 1. Nobody has claimed that "closed" (or "open", for that matter) repeaters
- 'own' their frequency.
-
- 2. Nobody has indicated that amateurs cannot operate on repeater input
- or output frequencies, even if the repeater is considered "closed".
-
- 3. I, and others, have indicated that if someone opts for #2, however,
- they have to insure that they do not interfere with the repeater on
- those frequencies.
-
- 4. "Coordination" is a status which can be granted, taken away, or lost.
- When people use the term "taken away" or "lose", they are usually
- referring to coordinated status, not to some claim that they "own"
- a frequency.
-
-
-
- > Oh yes, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Red. As must be anyone who advocates
- > the outrageous notion that pubic resources made so by Act of Congress
- > (radio spectrum) ought to be made available to the public, and be utilized
- > at the pleasure of the public.
-
- The logical extension of your argument is that you should have no
- operating limits placed on you at all. If you want to set up an
- amateur repeater on 880.50, you should be able to.
-
-
- > ...and you can salvage the site, the single most valuable commodity.
-
- This is a value judgement. Around here, sites are a dime a dozen.
-
-
-
- MD
- --
- -- Michael P. Deignan
- -- Amalgamated Baby Seal Poachers Union, Local 101
- -- "Get 'The Club'... Endorsed by Baby Seal poachers everywhere..."
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 12:56:16 GMT
- From: brunix!pstc3.pstc.brown.edu!md@uunet.uu.net
- Subject: 440 in So. Cal.
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- rogjd@netcom.com (Roger Buffington) writes:
-
-
- > Actually, what really happened was that the repeater you reference, CLARA,
- > first ***re-coordinated*** itself as CLOSED before commencement of the
- > lawsuits, in recognition of the weak grounds for barring specific hams
- > from an open repeater.
-
- I guess now FCC statements == weak ground.
-
-
- MD
- --
- -- Michael P. Deignan
- -- Amalgamated Baby Seal Poachers Union, Local 101
- -- "Get 'The Club'... Endorsed by Baby Seal poachers everywhere..."
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 12:57:00 GMT
- From: brunix!pstc3.pstc.brown.edu!md@uunet.uu.net
- Subject: 440 in So. Cal.
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- rogjd@netcom.com (Roger Buffington) writes:
-
-
- > Actually, what really happened was that the repeater you reference, CLARA,
- > first ***re-coordinated*** itself as CLOSED before commencement of the
- > lawsuits, in recognition of the weak grounds for barring specific hams
- > from an open repeater.
-
- I guess now FCC statements and rules/regulations == weak ground.
-
-
- MD
- --
- -- Michael P. Deignan
- -- Amalgamated Baby Seal Poachers Union, Local 101
- -- "Get 'The Club'... Endorsed by Baby Seal poachers everywhere..."
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 13:02:33 GMT
- From: brunix!pstc3.pstc.brown.edu!md@uunet.uu.net
- Subject: 440 in So. Cal.
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- greg@netcom.com (Greg Bullough) writes:
-
- > Imagine how far behind where it is now the packet network would be if
- > the generous souls who run PBBS systems had the same attitude?
-
- I know several packet operators who give "perks" to people who
- donate equipment and money to the system. I eventually expect that
- some packet systems will become "closed", especially those with
- alot of functions and links.
-
-
- > I submit that most hams, who can afford to, will support a repeater
- > group where they use the machine frequently. Some can't affort to. No
- > matter. Hell, we've been known to give youngsters use of our old HF
- > rig for an indefinite period, just to keep them on the air.
-
- Some people can't afford food. Let's socialize food manufacturing and
- distribution. Some people can't afford housing. Free housing for all.
- Some people can't afford health care. Let's socialize... Ooops, I
- forgot, they're already doing that one.
-
-
- > Our we can all band together in our little cliques and country-clubs,
- > and re-hash the same thing on our way to work each day, with no fear
- > of meeting someone who we don't know already.
-
- I believe this to be an overgeneralization. There are many closed
- systems which are willing to accept new members. Many closed systems
- also allow visitors. Yes, some are cliquey and country-club snobby
- too. So what?
-
- MD
- --
- -- Michael P. Deignan
- -- Amalgamated Baby Seal Poachers Union, Local 101
- -- "Get 'The Club'... Endorsed by Baby Seal poachers everywhere..."
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 16:28:34 GMT
- From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!rogjd@network.ucsd.edu
- Subject: 440 in So. Cal.
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- Michael P. Deignan (md@pstc3.pstc.brown.edu) wrote:
- : rogjd@netcom.com (Roger Buffington) writes:
-
-
- : > Actually, what really happened was that the repeater you reference, CLARA,
- : > first ***re-coordinated*** itself as CLOSED before commencement of the
- : > lawsuits, in recognition of the weak grounds for barring specific hams
- : > from an open repeater.
-
- : I guess now FCC statements == weak ground.
-
-
- Sorry if the facts are confusing you, Mike, but my above recounting of
- the facts stands. Clara was advised by its very expensive legal counsel
- that they would be on much stronger grounds trying to bar certain
- individuals from the repeater if the repeater were coordinated as closed.
-
- They consequently applied to the coordinating body to re-coordinate their
- pair as closed. The application, in recognition of the above, was granted.
-
- Sorry if the above facts conflict with your view of things.
- --
- rogjd@netcom.com
- Glendale, CA
- AB6WR
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 15:48:25 GMT
- From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!emory!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary@network.ucsd.edu
- Subject: 440 in So. Cal.
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- In article <1994Jun2.130604.13680@cs.brown.edu> md@pstc3.pstc.brown.edu (Michael P. Deignan) writes:
- >
- >In the past two years that I've been a repeater trustee, my machine has
- >cost me in excess of $6,000; that doesn't include all the sweat equity
- >I've put into it where I've not put in some OT at work or turned down
- >a consulting job because I had to work on the repeater for some reason.
-
- That's amazing. The most popular, and widest coverage, 440 MHz machine
- in Atlanta cost less than $500 total, and has had less than 16 manhours
- total spent on maintaining it in the last 4 years. Like with many other
- *open* machines, the site and power are donated by a public spirited
- corporation, in this case a cabinet 970 feet up the WXIA-TV broadcast
- tower. The machine itself uses conservatively run GE commercial grade
- radios, bought surplus, and a simple microcontroller by S-Com. Good
- equipment, properly installed, just doesn't need much maintainence.
-
- Gary
- --
- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
- Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
- 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
- Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | |
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: 5 Jun 1994 18:44:52 GMT
- From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.cwru.edu!sct@network.ucsd.edu
- Subject: Getting started in HAMS
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- In article <elroy.770786465@rintintin.Colorado.EDU>,
- ELROY LAWRENCE A <elroy@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
- > Can anyone tell me where to get the FAQ on getting started in amateur radio?
-
- The best and most readily available FAQs are the books sold in every
- Radio Shack: the ARRL's _Now You're Talking_ and Gordon West's Technician-
- class license manual. They will get you off on the right foot.
-
- If you'd like to save some money, take a look in your local library.
- The books they have will give you all the general principles of ham
- radio, but the rules and exams have changed a lot in the last few years
- so you will want to buy an up-to-date license manual anyway.
-
- Followups to rec.radio.amateur.misc, please.
-
- Stephen
-
- --
- Stephen Trier
- sct@po.cwru.edu
- KG8IF
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 13:33:34 GMT
- From: brunix!pstc3.pstc.brown.edu!md@uunet.uu.net
- Subject: Ham Radio few problem
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- rwilkins@ccnet.com (Bob Wilkins n6fri) writes:
-
- > OK lets take this to the next step. Most technically proficient amateurs
- > today can decode touch-tone signals that are broadcast on the input
- > frequency. Most of you will now agree that touch-tone is no longer an
- > access-restriction for controlling or functioning an amateur repeater.
- > Surely by punching in the correct sequence on a touch-tone pad found on
- > any radio you are now controlling the repeater. You might even be able to
- > use the repeater for third party traffic. Where do you draw the line?
- > If PL is not an access restriction in the historic and common sense then
- > touch-tone is not sacred.
-
- If PL is not an access restriction then *NO* form of access restriction
- is sacred, since any amateur can figure out how to bring up a machine. Once
- someone figures out how to bring up a closed machine, does that give them
- the right to operate the station? Even the most convoluted mechanisms
- won't work - someone can always figure it out.
-
- (Of course, I'd like to create a RF fingerprint access system, but the
- technology is too slow and expensive right now.)
-
-
- MD
- --
- -- Michael P. Deignan
- -- Amalgamated Baby Seal Poachers Union, Local 101
- -- "Get 'The Club'... Endorsed by Baby Seal poachers everywhere..."
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 13:29:36 GMT
- From: brunix!pstc3.pstc.brown.edu!md@uunet.uu.net
- Subject: Ham Radio few problem
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- jws@fc.hp.com (John Schmidt) writes:
-
- > A closed carrier operated system sounds like an oxymoron to me, unless you
- > have someone playing channel cop 24 hours a day. If you have several
- > members who don't have a real life, maybe you can do that.
-
- Since a repeater trustee is responsible for all traffic rebroadcast through
- his/her machine, he certainly should have control operators capable of
- monitoring the system all day.
-
-
- > I said in a previous
- > post I wouldn't hang around if asked to leave, but neither you nor Mike have
- > been able to give a single example of the FCC disciplining a ham for
- > attempting to use an ostensibly closed repeater while otherwise following
- > all regulations -- that is, using proper calling procedures and not
- > causing deliberate interference to other users.
-
- You're right, I don't know of a specific case which has made it to the
- FCC for clarification, as most interference issues are handled through
- the OO and Auxiliary. I can say that I work closely with several members
- in the OO/Auxiliary program on other issues, and each of them agree that
- the scenario you describe would be considered interference.
-
- Again, it boils down to intent. If the intent of the person is to make
- a call on a closed repeater, one would have to ask "why?", especially
- if nobody is going to come back to him.
-
- Since the FCC has stated that repeater owners can limit who uses the
- station, the only option available to a control operator when an
- unauthorized user comes on the machine who refuses to leave is to
- shut the machine down. If the user keeps coming on the repeater, its
- pretty clear his/her intent is to keep the machine off the air by
- continually forcing the control operator to shut the machine down.
- Is this not interference with repeater operation?
-
- Let's look at a similiar example. You have an open repeater with a
- members-only autopatch. Someone comes on the machine, IDs, and proceeds
- to attempt to crack the autopatch code. Is this interference? Again,
- intent.
-
- Most of these cases around here have never made it past the OO/Auxiliary
- stage. Usually by then the offending party finds other things to do or
- mysteriously looses interest in ham radio.
-
-
- MD
- --
- -- Michael P. Deignan
- -- Amalgamated Baby Seal Poachers Union, Local 101
- -- "Get 'The Club'... Endorsed by Baby Seal poachers everywhere..."
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 94 11:23:32 GMT
- From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!natt@network.ucsd.edu
- Subject: wanted 7mhz tcvr like HW22 or Swan MB-40.
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
-
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 94 09:12:00 -0700
- From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!gatech!asuvax!pinyon.libre.com!twb!chris.hinkle@network.ucsd.edu
- Subject: YAESU FT840
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- I am thinking of getting a Yaesu FT840 HF rig and was wondering
-
-
-
- Well, having onlt the 757 to compare it with, I like it alot. the extra
- memories, of which you have two per mem channel, are both tunable. It also has
- the ctscss tones built in(too bad no FM unit built in, you need to buy this
- separately). As far as the reciever goes it is quite a bit nicer than the 757's
- , very quite for the price your paying, the shift feature is also very effective
- for QRM. I use this rig mobile 90% of the time and enjoy it. Now my opinions are
- very biased, dur to the fact that, I have never owned any other make of radio,
- and I got the rig for 675.00 brand new. If you can wait for Yaesu days again,
- the sale price was 729.00. Well i'm certain you'll be happy with whatever your
- purchase is, because with a good antenna, you'll work the world eventually. 73
- N7UJU
- ---
- │ MR/2 2.0 NR │ Never assume. It makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 16:36:19 GMT
- From: netcomsv!netcom.com!rogjd@decwrl.dec.com
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- References <1994Jun4.081913.2429@hnrc.tufts.edu>, <2sq5np$p2j@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, <1994Jun5.090702.2432@hnrc.tufts.edu>
- Subject : Re: FCC computers up!
-
- Jerry Dallal (jerry@hnrc.tufts.edu) wrote:
- : In article <2sq5np$p2j@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, jmaynard@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
- : > In article <1994Jun4.081913.2429@hnrc.tufts.edu>,
- : > Jerry Dallal <jerry@hnrc.tufts.edu> wrote:
- : >>That's 6 per state per day. Makes you wonder what it was like before
- : >>computers.
- : >
- : > Well, remember that the FCC most likely has one person doing applications;
- : > there are 480-man-minutes per day, which means they're spending 1 minute, 36
- : > seconds on each application if they're heads-down for the full day with no
- : > breaks. I'd say they're doing pretty well...but I also understand that's cold
- : > comfort for folks waiting on license processing.
-
- : I've no complaint with what they were doing, given their available staffing.
- : (In fact, I realized some might interpret my comment as criticism and
- : cancelled the post. You must have caught it in the short period it was
- : active.) In NH, KC1OX publishes the KY1N Memorial list of scheduled VE exams.
- : June, which is typical, shows 41 sessions for the 6 state NE area. If you
- : figure 10 licesnses or upgrades per session and assume its roughly uniform
- : throughout the country, you get a figure that fits confortably within their
- : new capability, but it's easy to see why the waiting time has been steadily
- : increasing.
-
- Actually, assuming that the FCC's new computer system enables it to handle
- the applications load with reasonable facility, we should compliment them
- on their cost-management. It is proverbial in the management
- cost-containment world that it is far more cost-effective to deal with
- this sort of process by improving systems (as they have done) rather than
- by adding (much more expensive) headcount.
-
- Personally, I don't want instant licensing, and I don't want fees for
- licensing, so what they have done seems pretty OK to me.
-
- The real question I am curious about is rather the current torrid rate of
- licensing will continue, or whether it will eventually level off. One
- might suspect that there was a fair amount of pent-up demand for licensing
- which the no-code ticket has solved. Or will the current rate continue or
- accelerate?
-
- Beats me!
-
- 73
- --
- rogjd@netcom.com
- Glendale, CA
- AB6WR
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: 5 Jun 94 09:07:02 -0500
- From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!noc.near.net!news.tufts.edu!news.hnrc.tufts.edu!jerry@network.ucsd.edu
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- References <2skv9f$a2l@bigfoot.wustl.edu>, <1994Jun4.081913.2429@hnrc.tufts.edu>, <2sq5np$p2j@nyx10.cs.du.edu>tufts
- Subject : Re: FCC computers up!
-
- In article <2sq5np$p2j@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, jmaynard@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
- > In article <1994Jun4.081913.2429@hnrc.tufts.edu>,
- > Jerry Dallal <jerry@hnrc.tufts.edu> wrote:
- >>That's 6 per state per day. Makes you wonder what it was like before
- >>computers.
- >
- > Well, remember that the FCC most likely has one person doing applications;
- > there are 480-man-minutes per day, which means they're spending 1 minute, 36
- > seconds on each application if they're heads-down for the full day with no
- > breaks. I'd say they're doing pretty well...but I also understand that's cold
- > comfort for folks waiting on license processing.
-
- I've no complaint with what they were doing, given their available staffing.
- (In fact, I realized some might interpret my comment as criticism and
- cancelled the post. You must have caught it in the short period it was
- active.) In NH, KC1OX publishes the KY1N Memorial list of scheduled VE exams.
- June, which is typical, shows 41 sessions for the 6 state NE area. If you
- figure 10 licesnses or upgrades per session and assume its roughly uniform
- throughout the country, you get a figure that fits confortably within their
- new capability, but it's easy to see why the waiting time has been steadily
- increasing.
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 01:32:18 GMT
- From: ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!emory!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary@network.ucsd.edu
- To: info-hams@ucsd.edu
-
- References <2sn1dc$5hf@sugar.NeoSoft.COM>, <gregCqts8v.45J@netcom.com>, <2so39e$t29@sugar.NeoSoft.COM>
- Reply-To : gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman)
- Subject : Re: 440 in So. Cal.
-
- In article <2so39e$t29@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> jreese@sugar.NeoSoft.COM (Jim Reese) writes:
- >In article <gregCqts8v.45J@netcom.com>, Greg Bullough <greg@netcom.com> wrote:
- >
- >>Rather interesting that the
- >>phrase 'closed repeater' and 'accomodate everyone' can be used together,
- >>I think. But typical of the convoluted logic which those who are reaching
- >>to justify their monopolization of a frequency on a a crowded band.
- >
- >Let's not twist my meaning here...
- >
- >By "accomodate everyone", I meant that the coordinating body must accomodate
- >equally both trustees of open repeaters and trustees of closed ones. Its job
- >is to minimize interference, not make judgement calls as to who is "more
- >worthy" of a frequency.
-
- This is where the classic frequency coordinator hat and the spectrum
- management hat get tangled. Many coordinating bodies try to wear both
- hats and there is a basic conflict. As coordinators, their constituency
- is repeater station operators and potential repeater station operators,
- but as spectrum managers, their constituency is the entire amateur
- community.
-
- Many people feel that the only correct policy as coordinator is
- "first come, first serve", so whoever first files a non-conflicting
- application to operate a repeater gets the coordination in perpetuity.
- However, as spectrum managers, the body has to take into account the
- interests of all of the amateur community, users as well as operators
- of the designated repeater spectrum, in order to maximize the utility
- of the limited public resource to *all* amateurs. This is a dynamic
- role in a growing service. It's in this latter role of establishing
- public policy that most coordinating bodies fail to carry out their
- responsibilities.
-
- Since coordination bodies are generally elected by their members,
- almost exclusively repeater owners, they tend to protect the
- status quo. That's only natural. However, when they also attempt
- to wear a spectrum manager hat and set public policy, they aren't
- representative of the amateur community at large. This is a fatal
- flaw and a basic conflict of interest.
-
- The current issue of "closed" versus "open" is not a coordination issue.
- It's a spectrum management policy issue. Currently constituted coordination
- bodies aren't suited to dealing with this issue. It must be dealt with by a
- body representative of all amateur interests. In most cases, such a body
- doesn't currently exist. Current coordinating bodies would do the amateur
- community a service by taking off their spectrum management hats and admitting
- they aren't the proper representatives to address the issues involved. What
- we have now is a committee of foxes setup to set fencing standards for the
- chicken coop.
-
- Gary
- --
- Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it, | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
- Destructive Testing Systems | we break it. | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
- 534 Shannon Way | Guaranteed! | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
- Lawrenceville, GA 30244 | |
-
- ------------------------------
-
- End of Info-Hams Digest V94 #629
- ******************************
-